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Talk:Urizen
Spoiler? Isnt his name... like still Spoiler? Meshifuari Arimota (talk) 11:39, February 21, 2019 (UTC) :Cant say for sure. I havent kept up with all the interviews and stuff... LegionZero (talk) 20:10, February 21, 2019 (UTC) ::Is there an actual spoiler policy here? I checked the link to guidelines in the Top Navigation, but that article no longer exists (that should be fixed, Legion). The way I see it, it's a wikia and spoiler content is a given. If someone doesn't want to be spoiled, they should take care not to look at certain things. We shouldn't have to do that for them. Munchvtec (talk) 20:16, February 21, 2019 (UTC) :We dont include any unofficially released information. I guess its less about spoilers and more about avoiding leaked content. LegionZero (talk) 21:15, February 21, 2019 (UTC) In that case... we're good. Meshifuari Arimota (talk) 21:43, February 21, 2019 (UTC) :So his name has been said out loud by devs? LegionZero (talk) 05:43, February 22, 2019 (UTC) During a lot of official Capcom streams, yes. There was even a recent one where they've mentioned him. They even included a lot of new enemies, could make a page about them, but the pictures wont be in the best quality (360 p or so) Meshifuari Arimota (talk) 08:25, February 22, 2019 (UTC) He is a demon, right? Why are we not marking him as demon in his infobox and categories Meshifuari Arimota (talk) 16:24, March 9, 2019 (UTC) :Urizen is not from the Underworld (thus not a demon either); He is Vergil's evil shard as a demon. Most of the demons come from the Underworld (except Urizen and the artificial demons). The terms "race" and "part" are different. :-Tlaqh1335 (talk) 16:42, March 9, 2019 (UTC) In biology, a species is the basic unit of classification and a taxonomic rank of an organism, as well as a unit of biodiversity. Due to Urizen being "biologicaly" demon, I think that he should be included as one. But hey, that's just me. Meshifuari Arimota (talk) 22:13, March 9, 2019 (UTC) :Well apparently we're back here again. Trish states, explicitly, that Urizen is not a demon, and V says he is "only a man." The earlier statement by Trish calling him a demon is because she calls him that, thinks for a moment, then realises he can't be one because she'd remember him if he was. This is something people commonly do in natural speech (the brain catching up with the mouth, as it were). It is therefore safest to refer to him as a being who calls himself "Demon King," since that's consistent with all the facts rather than having to ignore some of them. Evil Tim (talk) 10:49, April 11, 2019 (UTC) ::In the following scene V says that Vergil "needed to separate man from devil with the strength of the Yamato." The game makes it very clear that Vergil separated himself into human and demon. Vergil's character profile in 5 says he used Yamato to "cleave demon from human." Trish says he isn't a demon solely because she had never heard of him in the underworld but that isn't the only place where demons can be born/created. LegionZero (talk) 11:48, April 11, 2019 (UTC) ::: Cant we just call him demonic being from now on, in order to choose the safest alternative? Meshifuari Arimota (talk) 11:53, April 11, 2019 (UTC) ::::He is a demon, V says so when explaining his origin. As Vergil's demon half, he is a demon by default. LegionZero (talk) 12:27, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :::::You base this on what? Trish says he's not a demon. V says there's no demon by that name. That's pretty clear. It's magic, there aren't any rules as to how it works. Evil Tim (talk) 12:40, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :::::: You both have a good point. However as Tim mentioned.. they both later on deny that he's a demon. So you have two words against one. So while he's demonic half of Vergil... He's not a demon in itself? I mean doesnt make much sense, but that's not the first thing that doesnt make a sense in DMC universe. Dante even stated during their fight that he still had a small embers of humanity left (and V had embers of demonic powers left) before eating the fruit. Using being instead of demon is a safer option.Meshifuari Arimota (talk) 12:54, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :Frankly I have no idea why there is this discussion in the first place, but here are my two cents. :To cut to my actual point, I think there is one simple reason above all the rest why we should continue calling Urizen a demon, and V a human: simply because it is less confusing if we continue to use those words, and not make up new bull synonyms like "demonic being" or whatever. :But since ya all obviously wanting some lore argument to settle this, here is what I think. :* Trish was saying that "Urizen is not a demon" in the sense that "he is not a demon that came from the Underworld." It's a contraction. She is putting it that way to save on word space. :* Secondly, so far, the games have been implicitly using the duck principle to call something a demon or not. You see a bird which looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck: what do you call it? The twins have been explicitly called "half-human, half-demon hybrids", although they were born and raised in human world. By that same measure, Urizen is definitely a demon, and V is a human - and Trish's exception to using the term is exactly that, an exception. :* In fact, as far as strict categorizing goes, I'd call Urizen an artificial demon. He was created, and he has powers of a demon. (And yes, by that same logic, V is an artificial human, which I also think makes perfect sense.) But yeah, while this make perfect logic sense, don't put this in the articles. :My signature is NOT short! 16:30, April 11, 2019 (UTC) ::But she doesn't say he's not a demon that came from the underworld, she said he's not a demon, period. Indeed, you see V was right about that when Dante's fighting God-Urizen and he can still remember being Vergil, even though that shouldn't be possible if he has none of Vergil's human memories. ::(Frankly I think Vergil accidentally split his goon side and serious side rather than his human side and demon side, that explains a whole lot about how V acts :P) Evil Tim (talk) 16:43, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :::Respectfully, I fail to see a counterargument in your post. I explained why I think Trish didn't say the full thing. You only repeat the fact that she didn't, with no further iteration on it. In addition, you say nothing of the arguments of "simplicity", and "duck principle" I made. :::Unless someone comes around with better argument than "But Trish didn't SAY the whole thing, and based on this one occurrence we should make the article harder to comprehend even though all other evidence says otherwise," I am ruling this out the way I stated it. My signature is NOT short! 17:09, April 11, 2019 (UTC) ::::I don't need a better argument. Your evidence is something a character did not say. It doesn't matter why you think they didn't say it, they didn't say it. It's just as likely that coming from the underworld is a prerequisite for a creature to be considered a true demon (after all, we don't really know what actual demons consider the various "artificial demons" to be, they haven't told us), and so Trish saying that is equivalent to saying "I know he's not a German because he doesn't come from Germany" (though it might even be on the level of "I know he isn't human because he isn't from Earth"). Evil Tim (talk) 17:20, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :::::In V's telling of his origins, he said "the man became a true devil." This happened after Trish claimed he wasnt a demon. You seem pretty hung up on the one time one character accused him of not being a demon. LegionZero (talk) 18:47, April 11, 2019 (UTC) ::::::The two times, one of which is a character who is a demon and so is our best source on who is or isn't one. Evil Tim (talk) 19:30, April 11, 2019 (UTC) Thanks, Legion. In addition, more turns of tongue why I say that DMC uses duck principle when deciding whether something is a demon or not: * One can become a demon: ::"[[Arkham/File|Arkham works closely with Vergil. Although human, he is driven to become a demon.]]" ::"Vergil to Arkham: To further your study of the black arts, you sacrificed your loving wife, to become a devil as well." ::"Nero: Wrong Credo. All that you've become is a demon!" * Beings not from Underworld do get called demons sometimes: ::Boss - Vergil: Dante's half-man, half-demon twin brother. Wields a keepsake sword from his father but won't touch guns as he doesn't view them as weapons of a true warrior. ::Dante's entry on the promo site: The proprietor of Devil May Cry, and a Devil Hunter of legendary proportions. Dante is a half-human, half-demon hybrid, born to a human woman Eva and the demon who saved the human world, Sparda. <...> *And finally, in the file of three other entities which were created the same way Urizen was... ::Nico's Character Report - Griffon: One of the demons V has at his beck and call.'<...> ::Nico's Character Report - Shadow: One of the demons that keeps V from gettin' himself killed. <...> Honestly, last one, coupled with Legion's comment, just about nails it. Urizen is semantically a demon. My signature is NOT short! 19:40, April 11, 2019 (UTC) ::::No Tim, V is our best source, as he actually knows who/what Urizen. Trish's argument boils down to "i never heard of him so he must not be a demon." By that logic Lucia, Basalisks, Cutlasses, Bianco/Alto Angelos, Gladii, are not demons because they arent from the underworld and Trish wouldnt have heard of them. Trish is an expert on the Underworld, but not on every single demon to ever exist. Even she had to do research on Abigail. LegionZero (talk) 20:07, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :::::No, V isn't much of a source. Vergil doesn't know much about demons last I checked, that's why he needed Arkham at all. Also, V says there's no demon by that name, too. Evil Tim (talk) 20:12, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :Thing is, you're treating these characters as though they can overrule an actual demon from the underworld as to what is or isn't a demon. Arkham wants to become a demon, but saying you want to be rich doesn't mean you are rich and the conclusion to his desire to become a demon, if you recall, was "whoops, humans can't do that, nvm" and a fight with a weird blob thing. :I also don't know why you bought up "half-demon." That would be because their father was Sparda, a demon from the underworld. If your father is from Germany that means you're half-German, it doesn't follow that I could divide you into a half that was a true German and a half that wasn't German at all. :And Nico's reports are written in-character. Do you not recall how her other reports make it clear she knows almost nothing about the subject and most of what she does know is cribbed from notes by her dad, who was several spanners short of a toolbox to put it very mildly? :There's slightly more to evaluating the provenance of sources than just confirming they exist. Evil Tim (talk) 20:10, April 11, 2019 (UTC) ::Vergil does know about demons, he just didnt know about Sparda's seal. All of the Qliphoth stuff happened because Vergil knew about it. Trish knew nothing of Urizen/V or what they were. And then V explained how Vergil split himself into his human and demon halves. Before the Nightmare elaborated that Trish never heard of Urizen before. How can she be an authority on someone she never even heard of? To add to that, how can she be an expert on all demons when she only knows of ones from the underworld? Also, how many times have we heard demons claim that Dante/Nero were just humans? Demons from hell constantly call them humans, even when Nero had an obviously demon arm. So not even demons from hell not absolute authorities on who is and isnt a demon. ::Humans become demons. Arkham became a blob because he was evil, not because "humans cant become demons." We have numerous cases of humans becoming demons. ::Nico doesnt know much about magic, but she has studied demonology and demon biology outside of her fathers research. LegionZero (talk) 20:55, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :::My examples were to provide some points of semantic analysis. This is relevant because we are arguing exactly that right now, semantics: by the aforementioned duck principle, Urizen is firmly a demon. And from those points I provided, entities which are different from "this is an being which came from the Underworld and has demonic powers" have been called demons before. As such, it is completely fair for us to call Urizen a demon, even if Trish - in a fairly arguable context, at that, since the meaning can be rendered in several ways! - once, and likely mistakenly, called him not a demon. :::Why you consider Trish to be a better authority on demons than Nico, to the point where you suggest that one line from Trish in a questionable context absolutely must mean that one thing you want for it to mean, while dismissing Nico's reports as "ah she is obviously mistaken," I find frankly quite puzzling. Nico may be a relative amateur, but she has proven her understanding of the topic throughout the game; meanwhile, I can argue that Trish's knowledge must be quite limited, since the time she spent in the Underworld cannot have been long. She was created with express purpose to fetch Dante to Mallet Island, and, frankly, how she knows even as much as she shows in the game I find slightly puzzling. :::At any rate, this dispute is going in circles. Since I fail to see how your dismissal of my and Legion's arguments (plural) is any different from our dismissal of your one argument, I am going to consider this discussion closed until further developments. Respectfully, My signature is NOT short! 21:08, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :::Oh and all excellent points, Legion. I only saw them once I finished with my post. My signature is NOT short! 21:08, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :Knowing who you are isn't all that impressive, given V has Vergil's memories of what he was trying to do and saw the hooded figure turn into Urizen (I guess he asked the guy's name before he left or something). :Not hearing of a being who's only existed for a few weeks isn't exactly a stain on Trish's expertise. Her statement is in line with several descriptions we've seen in the past to the effect that demons of great age are the powerful ones. The denizens of the underworld knowing each other is also bought up elsewhere: Goliath recognises V as Vergil (he was down there quite a while, after all) and even Nidhogg seems to recall him as Nelo Angelo despite his stated inability to leave the Qliphoth. That's not to mention all the names King Cerberus throws out despite that from what we've seen the Cerberus tribe don't exactly get around. :Demons constantly call Dante or Nero humans because they look like humans. I don't think you really get to apply that logic to Urizen since he looks like a demon: we've yet to have any example of demons saying demons are demons when they aren't (aside from Trish doing that and immediately correcting herself). Moreover, a lot of the ones that do that realise the error of their ways during or after the battle (Phantom and the original Cerberus, for example). :Arkham didn't become a blob because he was evil, he became a blob because his human body couldn't handle that much power. :We don't get to decide if Trish was speaking mistakenly. Nobody in canon says she's mistaken, and V doesn't contradict her statement that being a demon makes her an expert on the contents of the Underworld. There's two lines that corroborate the idea that whatever Urizen is, he is not a demon. :Also, there's a very interesting part to that quote from V you like waving around: ::He needed to separate man from devil with the strength of Yamato. :: And eventually, the man became a true devil. :Why would a devil have to "become a true devil?" It almost reads like V's admitting he's the demonic half and it's the human side of Vergil that had the lust for power. Which...is actually kinda an interesting idea, even if it doesn't fit with the aforementioned fact that full-humans can't handle large amounts of raw demonic power without turning into weird blob things and dying after a halfassed boss fight with a co-op gimmick. Evil Tim (talk) ::I won't be disputing the main body of your argument, because as I said, I consider the topic closed. But just for general education, I have to point out a few things: ::> Arkham didn't become a blob because he was evil, he became a blob because his human body couldn't handle that much power. ::Enemy - Boss - Arkham ::Transformed into a gruesome beast after obtaining Sparda's power. His form was not born of Sparda's inherited power, but rather from the darkness that lies deep in his heart. ::I know it's kind of obscure lore point, because the dialogue implies otherwise and few people read Library files, but Legion is right up there. ::Although this is more of a sidepoint, but Arkham wasn't a full on human by that point, either. Although weak, he has an assortment of supernatural abilities - plus Vergil says as much, "Vergil: To further your study of the black arts, you sacrificed your loving wife, to become a devil as well. Knowing this I thought you'd be more useful to me, but I was wrong. No wonder your attainment of power is incomplete." :: > Knowing who you are isn't all that impressive, given V has Vergil's memories of what he was trying to do and saw the hooded figure turn into Urizen (I guess he asked the guy's name before he left or something). ::While you were probably sarcastic, want to note that the game makes it pretty clear V made that name up. He took it from the book he is always carrying around and named his demon half as such because he simply needed a name to use there. (But mostly to screw with Nero and the players). My signature is NOT short! 22:08, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :::Re: Arkham - Naw, that's not what that's saying. He was transformed by the power because his body couldn't withstand it (every piece of dialog in-game), and the precise form he was transformed into reflects his evil nature rather than Sparda's nature (the description there). There's no point reading them as contradictory: he can't handle the power and keep himself in Sparda's true form, so he turns into his own true form. It's one of those poetic justice things. Evil Tim (talk) 22:17, April 11, 2019 (UTC) ::::V didnt say Urizen cut out his human half to become a true devil. The man(Vergil) cut out his human half to become a true demon. No one said "Trish you are wrong" but V's explaination directly refutes Trish's assumption that Urizen isn't a demon. Oh, and what visuals accompany V's line about eventually? The halves separating and the demon half changing into the hidiousness called Urizen. And i already know your nect counter argument "why did he say 'eventually'?" Taking the whole story word for word, V said "he needed that power of the Yamato to separate man from devil." Saying what he needed isnt the same as saying that he had done it. ::::Nero's arm sure as hell didn't look human in 4. ::::Blob Arkhams profile doesn't say that his blob form comes from his own inner demon or that it is his own power. It is a reflection of his personality, this is the info that developers gave to us in the profile. When Arkham loses the power of Sparda, he loses the blob form. Arkham's "true form" is his human form. Nothing really equates his blob form with his lack of control. Im gonna take a lesson from Flia and leave this as my last reply. Not only is Trish's word alone isn't enough to say Urizen is not a demon, but we have other characters who know more about Urizen AND the plot tells us he is a demon. LegionZero (talk) 23:04, April 11, 2019 (UTC) :::::What, he doesn't get to be a God like just about everyone else? That's mean. Poor Urizen. :( Evil Tim (talk) 23:10, April 11, 2019 (UTC) ::::::Now you are being mean lol. Legion already admitted that he is actually on the side which says "God" is simply a poetic title. My signature is NOT short! 23:14, April 11, 2019 (UTC)